Discussion: View Thread

What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

  • 1.  What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 27-11-2020 11:25 AM
    Over the years I have spoken with recent engineering graduates and they have said they receive effectively no safety education, directed at engineers, in university. They have said they get risk analyses through economics courses, and some decision analyses courses, and use "safety factors" in design courses, but that may not be enough, in my view.

    There is a thought that, if undergraduate students were exposed to more "safety for engineers" areas, that it would make them more employable in industry.

    Legislation across Australia is pushing to register professional engineers, and that legislation is justified on public safety, so safety should be embedded or instilled in university graduates, in my view.

    What do people think:  would more grounding in "safety for engineers" for undergraduates, before they take an industry role, be a good thing to do?

    Tom Gouldie

    ------------------------------
    Tom Gouldie
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 01-12-2020 02:10 PM
    Hi @Tom Gouldie

    Thanks for your post, it is a really interesting question to consider. I look forward to seeing other community member's replies to this one too. 

    Do you have any specific examples of what you would like to see included in the curriculum that might give members some further inspiration in sharing their thoughts? 

    Thanks again for starting the discussion, I look forward to seeing you around the All member Open Forum again soon!

    Regards



    ------------------------------
    Sarah McGregor
    EA Xchange Community Manager
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 01-12-2020 02:23 PM
    Sarah and other members,

    Yes, I have a few ideas, but really wanted to see what our other members could offer.

    The trends from other groups I have canvassed seem to vary between an improvement in Human Factors, cognitive psychology and resilience education, and bare-bones safety things like hierarchy of control, risk assessment and hazard management, safety management systems, permit systems and the like.

    Am interested in members' thoughts.

    Tom Gouldie

    ------------------------------
    Tom Gouldie
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 07-12-2020 12:13 PM
    So what is the feeling among our members:  should an undergraduate engineering degree program include more cognitive/human factor things, or more of the basic safety things like appreciations of hierarchy of control, risk and hazard management, permit systems and the like, or leave it as is, and let the first employer implant these things?  Both areas are valuable for a person graduating in engineering, but with engineering programs so packed, which areas could be included, and if so, where do you fit them in?

    Interested in your thoughts.

    ------------------------------
    Tom Gouldie
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 23-08-2024 09:25 PM

    Hi Tom, Sarah, et al,

    i am pretty sure you could create a degree in "safety for engineers"!

    Reflecting on what I have seen through my career I think the following streams would be beneficial:

    • Workplace H&S legislation - understanding legislative requirements for WHS Management.
    • Safety in Design - how we, as engineers can deliver good engineering outcomes that are safe to build, operate, maintain, demolish, etc
    • Human Factors - an extension of SiD with clear focus on people and how they interact with plant and equipment, etc.
    • Technical Safety - things like HAZOP, LOPA, PHA, QRA, etc
    • Workplace / occupational safety - JHA/SWMS/SOP etc - keeping safe on site and in construction
    • Safety lessons - learning from incidents

    As a young grad I spent a couple of months on an operational site, such a valuable experience to get site time early to learn practical safety etc.

    i hope that resonates with people.

    Cheers,

    Ben



    ------------------------------
    Ben Parcell
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 24-01-2025 06:40 PM
      |   view attached

    Ben,

    Thanks for your post and the thought you put into it.

    On a related matter, for several years I have been mentoring engineering students and recent graduates in petroleum and other disciplines through the Society of Petroleum Engineers.  A recent "mentee" has just earned a Bachelor of Science in Environmental and Safety Engineering in Ghana.  The university he attended considers this an engineering degree, but because Ghana is not a signatory to the Washington Accord, their engineering degrees are not recognised in most of the world.

    I asked the recent graduate to send me his Program Structure because I was interested in the courses that an "environmental and safety engineer" would undertake.  I have attached it here.

    The program leans more towards environmental rather than safety, but does include at least 8 courses that speak directly to safety from year 2 to year 4.  This is in addition to the fundamental engineering courses most other engineering programs require.

    The courses I picked out as primarily safety, but could touch on other areas, are:

    • Introduction to Safety Management
    • Occupational Health Management
    • Risk Management and Hazard Control systems
    • Safety Technology
    • Accident Prevention and Control
    • Fire and Road Safety
    • Corporate Social Responsibility
    • Laws on Safety, Environment, Labour and Compensation

    I'd be interested in what people think about this type of approach to our original question of "What Safety Education Should an Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?"

    Regards,

    Tom



    ------------------------------
    Tom
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 08-12-2020 02:03 PM
    The education of engineers should provide some insight into legislative requirements of the profession. This will include safety and the requirements of the WHS act in all aspects of our job. For engineers this covers work site safety, but more importantly safety in design, operation and maintenance which covers all forms of engineering. Each discipline will also have other forms of regulation and compliance to cover. The training of our up and coming future engineers in these areas will also then help us in the workplace to keep current as they bring new knowledge in the team.

    ------------------------------
    Eric Hooimeyer
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 08-12-2020 04:43 PM
    Eric,

    Thanks for the post.

    A lot of engineering students are from overseas and may go back there, and Australian engineering graduates work in a lot of different countries, so approaching them with Australian legislation may not be what they will be needing.  I certainly agree that safety in design, operation and maintenance is warranted, as are (what for us in industry) pretty basic, like risk and hazard understanding, hierarchy of control, even an introduction of safety management and safety cases, all which extend to all disciplines.

    Good thoughts, thank you again.

    ------------------------------
    Tom Gouldie
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 04-01-2021 01:37 PM
    Hi Tom,

    I agree that there is, in general, a shortfall of safety education for engineers. I feel that there is a fundamental message that engineers create designs that become real assets that people will need to operate and maintain for many years and that the engineer/designer has a responsibility to make those future interactions safe. Sadly, it is often not until someone gets hurt that this message sinks in. Similar can be true for the environmental impact of designs.

    In terms of content, it should cover the basics as you suggest - hazard vs risk, hierarchy of controls, duty to do what is reasonably practicable - as well as consultation with the constructors, operators and maintainers (sometimes engineers have a fear of being shown-up by these skilled persons), and discipline specific requirements such as Functional Safety, Safety of Machinery etc.

    I'd also like to hear more opinions across industries on this topic.

    ------------------------------
    Trevor Zwar
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 09-01-2021 03:11 PM
    Hi Tom,

    I wouldn't just say that there's a lack in safety education, but engineering education all together. As a recent civil engineering graduate (bachelor and honours), I haven't learnt any structural analysis software at uni. They focus too much on management, communication and leadership, that they forget to teach us about what really matters and that is the fundamental theories of civil engineering. I understand that the aspects mentioned above (management etc..) are very important, but they are mutually important in any career. What makes me different than a student who studied medicine? Why should I be more qualified to sign off on structural drawings than a law student if we've both learnt about communication, leadership and management skills. The reason a person chooses to study civil engineering is to learn the fundamental theories so they can apply them in real life and what I've realsied is that universities have a big deficiency in their teaching system with regards to engineering atleast. As an engineering student I should be competent at the engineerng theoretical knowledge, and therefore should be drilled by engineering exercises (like structural analysis problems and soil mechanics). I should know off by heart how to analyze the forces acting on different structures if I was trained well, but the reality is that I'm not and neither are any of my colleagues. Becoming competent at these exercises will automatically improve engineering students knowledge about safety. In conclusion, there is no proper safety education because there is no proper engineering education.

    ------------------------------
    Chadwick Alam
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 15-10-2023 04:52 PM

    I think this is a matter for our various discipline Boards to address.  Even 20 years ago, there was too much training to be some sort of manager on day one of work and insufficient teaching of the core analysis skills.  From your post, I appears only to have become worse.

    Engineers need to be able to approach a problem from first principles - one can look up the formulae if you know where to look and what you are looking for! 

    Safety comes down to asking the right questions - will the building stand up, can the spacecraft withstand re-entry? Even operational safety comes down to the same basic questions - what happens if the crane fails, what happens if the ground gives way, what happens if the Pitot tube is blocked (Boeing 373 Maxx)?

    So, students must be taught to:

    • Ask questions
    • Realise that they are responsible
    • Realise that they should not be afraid to ask more experienced colleagues
    • Realise that they will not always get it right but they are always responsible.


    ------------------------------
    Gordon J Chirgwin BE ME Dip Bus (Admin), Member Concrete Institute of Australia, MIE Aust
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 31-05-2024 09:33 AM

    I agree with you Chadwick. Engineering is applied science, therefore you need to be competent in the underlying science. Watering down science to engineering science and engineering maths is not helpful. 



    ------------------------------
    Albert Fourie
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 31-05-2024 10:09 PM

    I completely disagree. Science has come from engineering technology which dates back at least 12,000 years to the beginning of civilisation. I suggest you read the book "Great Engineers and Pioneers in technology Volume 1 From Antiquity to through the Industrial Revolution" although it is biased towards civil and mechanical engineers rather than highlighting the many achievements about chemical or process engineering.

    The first metal that was smelted before 7000BC was lead (samples of weights and sinkers for fishing nets found in excavations in Turkey). At the same excavations?? in Turkey and also in Israel dated to 7000BC there were polished concrete floors for which strengths of some sample were as high as 60MPa. Analyses showed the aggregate was limestone and the cement likely lime CaO.

    It was engineers who developed other processes for separating and smelting metals such as cupellation to separate silver from silver lead ores. Then copper and bronze (using tin and arsenic) followed by iron and steel etc.

    The Book mentions Imhotep ca 2650BC who built the pyramids (likely from concrete blocks as demonstrated by a French Professor in Ceramics). Imhotep acquired knowledge of hydraulics and built irrigation systems. He was a skilled astronomer and physician. He was also known for his vases. Look at this

    Gneiss vase Imhotep

    This could not have been made with copper tools and even could not with diamond drills. It has been moulded from a ceramic mix and fired.

    In an article titled "A Brief History of Inorganic Classical Analysis" by Charles M. Beck II, Analytical Chemistry Division National Institute of Standards and Technology. He says chemistry started in the late 18th century but many had the wrong ideas and it was not until the Kalsruhe Congress in 1860 that analytical chemistry was settled down. He states " Physical chemistry did not emerge until the last third of the 19th century". Chemical engineers were developing processes (such as curing leather, making soaps and cosmetics, dyes, silk, linen, smelting metals, distilling alcohol, producing vinegar etc ) much earlier. I suggest science developed from engineering technology. For example thermodynamic was developed by engineers for engineers. Scientists such as so-called "climate scientists" still do not understand this engineering subject. Chemistry is an introductary part of chemical engineering. Nuclear power is engineering.

    Finally, safety is common sense. It should not be separately taught at University especially not by union officials who do not understand such thing as hazardous materials. Safety is specific to a site and all mines, mineral processing sites, industrial process sites, structures etc have an safety introduction requirements for all who come on site. There is too much junk being taught at universities and courses have been made too easy so in my mind many engineers are not properly qualified. I have said when I was on standards committee BD/10 -cement for IEAust, I found many civil engineers did not know the properties of cement.

    Peter Benkendorff?? MBA, RPEQ(Chem), FAusIMM, FIEAust







  • 14.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 26-01-2021 01:10 PM
    Hi Tom, I note that this thread is almost 2 months old and like many threads in the EA Xchange, generally become "old" very quickly.

    I find it a bit unusual that the engineering based safety is not taught or at least, not provided with a significant focus, at graduate level engineering courses.  I would have assumed that graduate engineers would need to know that they have an overarching common law duty of care to ensure the health and safety of all persons that may be affected by their actions or inactions. This requires a significant education in what is safe and what is not. Be it at the design stage of a project or at the construction stage. Further, safety is such a broad topic. It ranges from "general" workplace health and safety through to specific engineering stream safety such as functional safety that includes risk reduction through safety integrity levels. Even the basics of knowing the difference between what is a "hazard" and what is a "risk". A lot of people use the terms as if they are interchangeable.

    Developing a syllabus for graduate level engineering safety would be challenging. This first thing most people think of is compliance with legislation. Compliance with legislation is a very minor piece of the overall information transfer. Especially considering that some courses may have students from several different countries that may have different "safety based" legislation to Australia. I think it would be possible to develop a semester long graduate level engineering safety syllabus from the view point that all engineers, regardless of the country that they operate in, need to ensure that they are able to keep themselves safe, keep others safe whilst at work and keep the community safe during the designing and construction stages of projects. I would suggest the following topics may be useful:
    1. What is safety and risk and how do they interact.
    2. What happens when safety fails - design failure, workplace failure and personal safety failure.
    3. The different types of risk reduction that can be used to keep people safe (everything from elimination of the risk, through to software applications).
    4. An overview of some of the more common engineering based safety streams, such as functional safety or Hazardous Industry Safety Cases.
    5. What to look for when on a construction site.
    6. What is your responsibility if you believe something is unsafe (from design to construction) - this could also be an ethical discussion around codes of practice and engineering ethics generally.

    ------------------------------
    Jason Wagstaffe AFIEAust. FAIHS.
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 27-01-2021 10:08 AM
    The focus should be more on systems safety planning and assurance in an engineering project environment.

    ------------------------------
    Terence Fernando
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 27-01-2021 10:54 AM
    I can only agree with

    Sent from my iPad





  • 17.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 28-01-2021 10:34 PM
    Sorry folks - only part of my email went through.

    I can only agree with Jason Wagstaffe about the need for such a course, and his list of proposed topics.  But I suggest there is a seventh and most vital topic to be included - and that is,

    "What is a Safety Culture in any organisation - what does it look like, how do we get involvement (because it has to come from the top but be embraced from the ground up), and therefore most importantly how do we as engineers individually and as a profession as a whole lead our people on the path towards an all-embracing safety culture in our businesses."

    In my former company (before I retired), our safety culture was measured by days since the last reportable incident - even a "near miss" - and it took me a full decade to achieve over 750 days in one plant, and over 650 in the other - only to find that our Swedish sister company had over 1750 and counting.  hard, hard work, but it paid off in worker pride and satisfaction, in lower WorkCover premiums, in productivity and in quality, and in my going for the best part of the last two years of my career without having to oversee the investigation of a single incident nor arrange for a worker to visit a doctor or a hospital nor ride in an ambulance - nor more importantly make that dreadful phone call to his or her family to say he or she will be late or may not even make it home tonight.

    Keep going until this proposal gets some real traction and becomes part of post-graduate - and even in a "safety - lite" form for undergraduate and diploma studies.

    Very best regards

    Warwick Kinscher






  • 18.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 28-01-2021 06:47 PM

    Hi, Gents,

    I totally agree that developing a syllabus for graduate level engineering safety would be challenging. Knowing the difference between a "hazard" and a "risk" is vital.

    Whilst knowledge of legislative stuff is important, for me, what was really important was to understand safety through practical examples and personal experience.

    I learnt much through my engineering experiences in the mines, in construction and off-shore after serious incidents including people being blown up, people being crushed to death and nearly drowning when Mindola Shaft flooded (Zambia, where I worked), and when Yallourn W, Unit 3 bunker (on which I was a construction engineer) burnt out, causing months of delay to Unit 3's commissioning. However, I learnt even more when attending First Aid courses and when learning to get my (High Risk) fork-lift licence.

    It was these real-life experiences where I obtained a thorough understanding of safety and the difference between risks and hazards.

    Courses need to be practical and have an impact on students to be of value.

    Regards,

    Jon Vitetta



    ------------------------------
    Jon Michael Vitetta
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 05-09-2023 09:23 PM

    TLI42422 Certificate IV Rail Safety Management course, approved nationally in August 2023, delivered by Alium Works



    ------------------------------
    Andriy Kostyuk
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 13-10-2023 01:09 PM
    Edited by Mulugheta Hailu 13-10-2023 01:18 PM

    I worked in university for few years, and I am back again to industry.

    My experience working in the university environment with research and undergraduate capstone students was that there is lack of knowledge on risk and safety management processes. As part of my work, I had to ensure that students preparing their research safety plan before starting their practical works, and I used to spend quite a significant amount of time explaining in detail the processes such as identifying the hazards, risks, and the control measures. Often students tend to go directly to do the job/their practical or research /experimental works with little regards to the risk management processes, like a waste of time. It is a cultural change, and we manage to teach our researchers and capstone students the benefits of preparing the risk management specific to their projects. The good thing was students appreciated the processes, after they realized that these processes benefited them in terms of their timelines, cost, and quality of their works as well. It was comprehensive and detailed I believe.

    However, this opportunity was only for those who prefer to do research-based projects, I was not sure whether other students had such opportunities.

    From industry point of view, I believe undergraduate students need to learn the relations ship between design and safety. One course might be the Safety in Design, this will broaden their perspective of how the engineering design is interrelated and interwind with the need to think about safety. The safety during construction and the safety during the operation or use of the facility in the lifetime. And students will appreciate how their theoretical structural knowledge will be challenged when they think of safety.



    ------------------------------
    Mulugheta Hailu
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 18-10-2023 06:19 PM

    The EA Stage One competencies required to accredit an engineering course at an Australian university include several elements of competency with inicators of attainment that require various levels of skill, appreciation, understanding, etc. required of graduates for entry to practice.

    (Stage 1 competency standard for professional engineers | Engineers Australia)

    e.g.:

    1.6  b) Appreciates the principles of safety engineering, risk management and the health and 
    safety responsibilities of the professional engineer, including legislative requirements 
    applicable to the engineering discipline. 

    2.1 h) Identifies, quantifies, mitigates and manages technical, health, environmental, safety and other 
    contextual risks associated with engineering application in the designated engineering discipline

    2.3 b) Addresses broad contextual constraints such as social, cultural, environmental, commercial, legal 
    political and human factors, as well as health, safety and sustainability imperatives as an integral part 
    of the design process.

    etc.

    If graduates are being produced from accredited courses that are not meeting these competencies, then I suggest that the accreditation process needs to be examined to find out why.



    ------------------------------
    Ainslie Just CPEng MIEAust NER RPEQ
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 19-10-2023 07:35 PM

    Agreed, it might also be useful if there was a requirement for the academics developing engineering risk management curricular to be registered engineers. Ideally in the area of practice of risk engineering. I have anecdotal experience of academics developing and delivering risk management courses to engineering undergraduates despite the academics lacking competence in risk engineering and being unaware its importance for achieving economically, socially and environmentally sustainable outcomes.   



    ------------------------------
    Laurie Bowman
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 20-10-2023 09:49 AM

    Hello Ainslie,

    Not "the accreditation process needs to be examined" but the "accredited courses" need to be developed to meet 'set targets' compliantly.

    Place, and maintain accountability with whom 'decision(s) authority' rests, at all times. 

    When suggestions propose to devalue fundamental engineering 'set targets'; one knows engineering has lost control and authority over their 'code of ethics'.

    One can no longer call it 'engineering' when engineering 'code of ethics' targets are open for interpretation(s). E.g.: a process that utilizes vague terminologies such as 'can', as 'anything nuclear cycle' does, cannot possibly entail 'anything engineering'.

    An engineer is deemed to uphold well-developed, supposedly 'continuously improving' Ethical Standards; to promote 'ethics' necessarily improving 'quality of (natural) life' (thereafter). Thereby preventing any non-accountable entities, as with any 'man-made nuclear cycle', as well with more legal complexities underway through 'AI'.

    Regards,



    ------------------------------
    Sebastian Tops
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 30-05-2024 06:48 PM

    Great insight 👍



    ------------------------------
    Dean BrownDean Ronald Brown
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 25-10-2023 07:17 PM
    Edited by Benjamin Pitkin 25-10-2023 08:10 PM

    Hi Tom,

    Thank you for your question.  Reflecting on my own experiences during university, and upon entry into the professional workforce, I did note a similar observation to yourself.  As not only is there a general lack of training in safety, and risk management, as topics of study in their own right.  I found the education would often fail to connect the purely theoretical analysis with the notion of satisfying standards, regulations, and requirements.

    I would however add a note of caution, on two key points:

     1. University education, generally, ought to be considered primarily as devotion to a field of study - and not merely vocational training.  Even the study of engineering, (with a clearly defined vocational pathway), is an intellectual discipline within its own right.

     2. Safety, within the industrial and engineering contexts, is an often-misunderstood concept.  Its treatment, within the academic context would require care - to keep it within the spirit of an intellectual field-of-study. 

    To further explain these points.  Engineering study, at university, is not about teaching people what to think.  It is about fostering a mental discipline.  Universities don't teach students what to think.  They teach students how to think.  So, before the regulations, standards, rules, and procedures make any sense, it is necessary to reinforce the basics.  The science, mathematics, theory, and history of engineering practice - based on a first principles approach.  Thus, University education - even in Engineering - is always going to be somewhat disconnected from the workplace.

    Safety within the workplace is often fraught with over-simplification, incuriosity, inflexibility, and zealotry.  All of which being pitfalls which I'd hope any professor would be eager to avoid.  The world of safety is often dictated by OH&S and WHS Regulations, that change from one jurisdiction to the next.  Invoking requirements dictated to us in painfully lengthy, often vague, (and mind-numbingly prescriptive documents), like the AS 4024 suite, AS ISO 31000, and AS 4343...  Mastery of these ought not to be your students' focus.

    I would further add, that in those years I supplemented my university education with an Advanced Diploma from TAFE - and was very glad that I did.  As I believe that TAFE was far better grounding for vocational training than anything learnt at university.  Particularly regarding machinery design, OH&S, and the nuances of Quality Control and Quality Assurance (ISO 9001).

    On the whole, I found the notion of safety to be heavily baked into my engineering degree - and having a subject devoted to this topic is an excellent idea.  I would propose its key topics as follows:

    1. Identifying the need for safety: What are the social harms caused by a lack of safety?  Why is safety important?  Case studies and literature review of harms in society, from products/incidents/poor practices.
    2. The history of safety: How has the notion of safety changed over time, in the workplace? Provide historical literature review as a timeline.  Start with the ancient history, then industrial era, and move into the modern day.
    3. Health and Safety: Identify the differences between Health and Safety Hazards.  How are they quantified? Discuss the modes of harm, nature of hazards, and the methods of quantifying them, likelihood of incident (Safety Hazard); as contrasted with dosages or exposure (Health Hazard).  Provide in-depth treatment of known toxicants, gases, chemicals, and their vectors of entry into the human body (ingestion, inhalation, absorption, etc.).
    4. Consequence and Risk: Expand on the previous topic to explain the risk-matrix.  How do we define consequence?  What is risk?  How does experience and training change risk - or how we understand it?  When is risk acceptable?  What are the ethical considerations behind risk?
    5. Controlling Risk: How can we as engineers control risk?  Explain the hierarchy of controls, and the benefits of each. The "Swiss cheese" approach. Explain the concept of residual risk.  Discuss the principle of unintended consequences, and the balancing of multiple risks.  When does 'safety' become a liability?
    6. Rules and Regulations: What rules and regulations are engineers expected abide by?  Discuss OH&S regulations, their intents and purposes, Take5, and SWMS, etc.  How do WHS Regulations impact on engineering design?    
    7. Statistics and Modelling: Expand on statistical and analytical methods for modelling risk.  Bring in worked examples from historical incidents/disasters and calculate likelihood and harm.  Dive deeper into the math and statistics.
    8. Documentary Studies: Video presentations.  Piper-Alpha, Air-Crash Investigations, etc.  Watch the presentations.  Then have student-led discussions on what went wrong, why, and how it might have been prevented.
    9. Lessons from History:  Research Project.  Have students research an engineering disaster of their choosing and submit a report and/or presentation.

    ^Hope that helps.



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Pitkin, MIEAust
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 25-10-2023 09:41 PM

    I agree there's no safety taught example welding they don't know what a fire extinguisher is or how to use it or what hazards might require you to have one on hand as in feul tanks ❓



    ------------------------------
    Dean BrownDean Ronald Brown
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 29-05-2024 07:20 PM

    Yes Tom and this is a big issue in our trades sector and training in general. Safety leads to a better understanding of the job you are doing and the importance of your job to ensure a positive outcome. 



    ------------------------------
    Dean BrownDean Ronald Brown
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 31-05-2024 09:38 AM

    Safety training ought to be an integral part of every subject, not unlike in industry, where we consider safety in everything we do. That way, it becomes "the way of engineering" rather than a standalone subject. There is also a place for a safety subject as such, covering methodologies such as risk analysis, root cause analysis, legislation, standards and so on. So much of engineering is about risk management. Whether or not the lecturers have the practical skills to bring insight to the topic is a different matter.



    ------------------------------
    Albert Fourie
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 06-06-2024 12:37 PM
    Edited by Tom Gouldie 06-06-2024 12:37 PM

    When I started this stream 4 years ago I was hoping for pretty much any feedback, hopefully some useful feedback, but I didn't think we would get this level.  Thanks you to all who have contributed, it is meaningful.

    A few things have come out that I could perhaps clarify from my original intent for the posting back in 2020:

    ·        I was looking for ideas to include in the "education" of engineering students, not aspects of the "training"of those persons in safety.  Training is generally intended to address the skills needed for a particular task or process, whereas education is deeper, getting the students to particularly appreciate safety in their future roles as engineers and the things that they will do to improve safety in their work as engineers, such as designing for safety.

    ·       I was also looking for safety aspects to introduce to students, not people who were already well into whatever industry they found themselves in.  The intent was to have an engineering graduate leave university with a better foundation of safety for engineers, a head start in knowing an engineer's role in safety.

    ·       The term "safety" was intended to cover safety for people, that is, keeping people from getting hurt or killed, and maybe a bit of environmental safety, minimising or eliminating harm to the natural world.  "Safety" was not intended to cover areas like reputational or financial safety, valuable things, but not intended here.

    Thanks to all who have contributed feedback, comments and ideas.  The Engineered Safety Group are finalising a presentation for students based on this input and our own discussions.  Keep the ideas coming!



    ------------------------------
    Tom
    ------------------------------



  • 30.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 06-06-2024 03:42 PM

    Hey mate I do a lot of work with the young people in engineering and am a big supporter of the safety training. I will definitely put some thoughts down for you in the next few days. It's something that has been going backwards for a while and definitely needs a bit of work 👍



    ------------------------------
    Dean BrownDean Ronald Brown
    ------------------------------



  • 31.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 06-06-2024 03:48 PM

    Thanks, Dean.

    Keep in mind that I was targeting 3rd or 4th year engineering students being made aware of the special things that engineer's provide to safety..

    The safety education I was thinking about can maybe be explained with a scenario:  on a worksite an area is taped off to exclude people walking through the area.  An engineer's job associated with that excluded area would not normally be just to keep people out of the area, but WHY they should not be in that area, and how large or small the area should be, and the timing of when the area can be seen as "safe" for people again, and maybe the robustness of the measures to keep people out of that area.  The "rules" could say the cordoned off area should extend 10 metres from a hazard, and people could put that restriction in place and enforce it, but an engineer knows WHY it is 10 metres, not 5 metres or 20 metres or maybe not even be there.  It's probably an engineer who wrote the "rules", and helped include those rules into the worksite standards and procedures.



    ------------------------------
    Tom
    ------------------------------



  • 32.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 06-06-2024 04:31 PM
    2 of my apprentices are 4th year and the distance that needs to allowed really depends on the actual job and situation as well as surrounding safety hazards that may be present. I have seen guys set up and not take into account the feul tanks that are 2 meters outside their safety zone
    Thank you Dean




  • 33.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 14-06-2024 04:04 PM

    Easy. Every Junior Engineer should learn about Broken Window Theory.

    While engineers are inexperienced, the biggest impact they have on safety is caring about it and contributing positively to a safe culture.

    This is a fantastic article (and short read) discussing Broken Window Theory, from its origins in NYC to Safety Management worldwide.

    What does the 1980's crime wave in New York City and Australian Construction Sites have in common? - EngiMBA



    ------------------------------
    Michael Salter
    ------------------------------



  • 34.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 14-06-2024 04:47 PM

    Michael,

    Thank you for your contribution.  The original question related to what safety education 3rd and 4th year engineering students should get to better prepare them for graduating and then contributing their skills using that safety education as engineers in whatever industry they may find themselves in.

    Safety culture within an organisation or more broadly on a multi-organisational project is certainly important, is often difficult to create and maintain, includes every person and every profession in the organisation(s), and generally comes from the top down with lots of input across the organisation(s).

    Engineers provide special roles in designing built structures and processes.  If we wanted engineering students to contribute to a positive safety culture when they graduate, what do we recommend they are taught in their engineering curriculum at university?



    ------------------------------
    Tom
    ------------------------------



  • 35.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 15-06-2024 04:37 PM

    Thank you for initiating this valuable discussion Tom, you may find the free resources and training on this Risk Engineering website useful. It provides a decent introductory level coverage of elements of human factors, case studies and basic qualitative and quantitative analysis.

    Some important concepts in safety management (risk-engineering.org) 

    For engineers education in safety really needs to be underpinned by a solid understanding of risk engineering. Risk engineering covers the creation and protection of value in all forms e.g. economic, social (such as safety) and environmental.    

    Hope this is useful.

    Best Regards

    Laurie



    ------------------------------
    Laurie Bowman
    ------------------------------



  • 36.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 15-06-2024 08:41 PM

    I just looked at some of the content and what I would say is that the people that are putting it together have not had the hands on experience in dangerous situations and there needs to be more collaboration between industry and the law makers 🤔



    ------------------------------
    Dean BrownDean Ronald Brown
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 18-06-2024 08:28 AM

    Thanks Laurie

    There was a question I saw recently on another thread which asked the question what should a risk management body of knowledge look like. This link and website goes a long way towards answering that question. Kudos.



    ------------------------------
    Mark Genge
    ------------------------------



  • 38.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 15-06-2024 11:33 AM

    Great read mate and a very interesting and informative article thanks 👍. 



    ------------------------------
    Dean BrownDean Ronald Brown
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 22-08-2024 11:12 AM

    Hi Tom, this is my first posting here.  I have been fortunate enough to be a part of the Petroleum Industry in Australia and Canada, and safety has always been deemed to be a very important aspect of what we do.  In this, I have participated in several field trips, where we had to go through safety processes, such as Safety Meetings, creation of JSA's (Job Safety Analysis) and other related aspects of this work.  I wondered if things like these aspects should be introduced to student engineers as being an important part of their work?  

    Dale



    ------------------------------
    Dale Womacks
    ------------------------------



  • 40.  RE: What Safety Education Should An Undergraduate Engineering Student Receive in University?

    Posted 23-08-2024 08:31 AM

    Hi Tom,

    I'm totally in support that undergraduate engineering students should have a feel of safety in engineering at University. As I thought through your question, I was really asking myself, 'what aspect of safety (WHS or Technical) can be treated hoslistically, and should this be a general course or specific to chosen discipline? If the aim is to provide students with foundational knowldege on general safety, then  the former with a bit of risk assessment may be helpful. And if it's to be tailored to chosen discipline, then the technical aspect of safety should be considered and, it has to be practical as far as possible, otherwise, its aims and objectives may be defeated.

    Using my experience as an example, I only got to realise and began to appreciate the benefit of safety in engineering systems after my undergraduate internship within the O&G industry. Being a part of the maintenance team - always in the field-, the need for Work Permit, routine inspection and maintenance schedules, LOTO, Learning From Incidence (LFI)- review of related incidents- and JHA (Job Hazard Analysis), etc were part of the daily maintenance activities. Although it made me begann to think from a safety perspective, always asking reflectively during activities in the field 'what could go wrong', much of these were however, seen as work procedures drafted and managed by the HSSE team to ensure activities are completed without incidents. But the experience helped me appreciate safety in engineering systems and spurred my choice of Elective on 'Engineering Maintenance and Safety' in my 5th year, and later, a postgraduate in Safety & Reliability Engineering. Although the undergraduate elective was as usual theoretical in nature, I think I had a better grip of it and its value becuase of the internship. 

    So I think two things are necessary when considering safety in engineering; integrating safety into engineering designs and implementing safety in the field. There may be a bit of similarities across engineering disciplines when considering the integration of safety in designs, however, when it comes to implementing safety in the field, I think the approach varies across the disciplines. And I believe it is essential to consider these, bearing in mind that while not all students would end up within a design team, yet, knowledge of proper material selections, application of hierachy of control, hazard identification and risk assessment etc (for example) in each discipline remains useful. However, implementing safety in each discipline requires different approaches and needs to be more specific and practical.

    To answer your answer, I think a workplace safety course, a review of related incidents with an overview of relevant regulations and legislations may be necessary as a general 'introductory' course for engineering students in the early years, then a tailored engineering safety courses (as compulsory or electives) in the 3rd/4th year with an industry experts would be more practical and helpful.



    ------------------------------
    Nathan Rowland Dappa
    ------------------------------